[elirien]

Originally Posted by Reveling John

No problem

Well, Elirien, you are not making any sense. None of your commentary is directly addressing any of the quotes you are using. Here you say "why would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of thier energy in form of money, motivation and intellect..." when this entire essay is the very anticedent of that. To prove my point I quote:



Your arguments don't seem to be connected to any specific sentence or overall intent. Maybe you just have an issue with laying out the argument clearly, and if that's the case I would suggest quoting only one or two sentences at a time and fully addressing only that fragment before moving on to the next idea. Also it doesn't appear that you've read the entire essay, which makes it difficult to respond to a specific segment if you don't know how that segment relates to the whole piece. It's like going on a rant about a 5 sec clip from a film, without watching the rest of the film to see that clip's relationship to the entire composition. So, maybe you should finish reading before you make any further statements.



What do you mean "that will happen"? It HAS happened. It IS happening. Human history is a history of dominant, boundary-defining, fragmented, and oppressive societies. Why are you addressing such memes as "ignore the individual" and "social engineering statistics" when this paper mentions none of those things except to implicate the current society's duplicity in breaking down the individual into a collection of meaningless cultural classifications? And if you think that's what is being said, you need to quote such references and clearly express what your comprehension of those passages are, before proceeding to rebuke them.

What does "digitize the masses" mean to you? While I await your extensive explanation, may I remind you that if you have an extensive knowledge of music, film, literature, games, etc. you can relegate a large portion of your capacity to know these things to the 'digitizing' of these various artifiacts. More than 90% of the media I've ever experienced, including text, music and film has come to me in a digital form and it was only the scientific/techinical process of digitization that allowed me to experience these things at all. I would say that this is true for most denizens of the western world, yourself most likely being included in that. But more importantly, what specific point are you addressing by using that phrase?




First I want to address the "grand problem", then I will move one to this alleged 'social engineering'.

"Everything changes" is the foundation of the Venus Project.

The point is that current society and the current state of our proto-civilization is one that ignores the modern acheivements of science. Our economic system ignores and suppresses new technologies. Our foreign policy ignores experiementally proven observations about human psychology and sociology. Our social infrastructure places little value on systems theories and the scientificly established notion that we are all connected in being, action, and thought. WE ARE NOT A RATIONAL OR LOGICAL CIVILIZATION because we ignore the progress that has been made towards understanding nature (including human nature), in order to preserve an old, out-dated world-view (which we are all still operating with, btw).

A society that accepts the reality of emergence-- emergent cultures, emergent sciences and emergent possibilities-- is one that is ALWAYS changing, always opting for the more logical and tolerant approach to any given problem. That IS what this essay affirms OVER and OVER AGAIN.

Social Engineering

The only time the term 'Social Engineering' is used in this entire thread is when you use it to charactice the Venus Project (and here, in this reply). Go ahead, do a word search, and you will not find a single instance of that phrase in the original essay. That poses 2 problems:

1) You never define the term so I don't know what you are talking about. Since you are presumably """borrowing""" the idea from the essay you should at least choose some very specific quotes and then outline HOW these quotes support your claim that this material is about "social engineering".

2) The fact that you use terms to characterize an essay in which those terms are never used, gives me serious doubts as to your ability to use language as a means of expressing and developing ideas, rather than as a means of creating limited abstractions of ideas, further diminishing the intent and meaning of those ideas.

The second problem is particularly unforunate because it encourages me to believe that you are not comprehending the intent and meaning of MY ideas, so possibly these few statements that I've made are completely lost on you. I certainly am not comprehending the meaning of many of YOUR ideas due to what I percieve as a lack of explanation. For my sake, I would ask that you spend more time formulating and composing your sentences and that you address ONE idea at a time.

Thanks for your audience and participation in these discussions.

John, first of all I can't see any of your sentences as an attack because they are written with the purpose to further the debate. I'm not questioning your sincerity and you can swear if you'd like to emphasize your points (which I like very much ). But let's continue with the topic at hand.

I didn't read the whole thing because I had no time the last days, but I didn't want you to wait for some comment and if I would be wrong I could still adress that later on without you having to wait for an answer from me.

Now as I can see the problem lies with my paragraph that stated:

"When you ignore the individual and digitize the masses to social engineering statistics that will happen all over. Failure is built in these systems because it ignores the other side of humanity that science tries to learn and control of, spirituality. What the hell do these people think. If I put my head in the sand that it will go away? Hell no. There is more around you then you can even imagine. Why in logic's name would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of their energy in form of money, motivation and intellect? The venus project is nothing more then the same experiment-failure that is called "the great work" by some. Why would one want to try that if you know that it's the same system packaged differently and optimized for more central control through the wrong use of technology?"

Let's dissect that:

When you ignore the individual and digitize the masses to social engineering statistics that will happen all over. Failure is built in these systems because it ignores the other side of humanity that science tries to learn and control of, spirituality.

Digitizing some visual element like a book or film or some aural element like music or voice is not what I'm talking about here of course. Even though in these cases the analog counterpart of the above mentioned elements are being degraded to digital data through sampling. I don't know much about how that goes on in video but in audio any type of re-sampling kills the original sound even if you sample it at let's say 32 bit with a 192 kHz sampling rate. Later on you have to pick that up and enhance it through various means but the end product is still degraded even though it is "polished" so to speak. (I recorded and mixed a lot of stuff before I got into this area of research so I know a little bit about this stuff).

I am studying business (in a college) and I read about statistics and how they work for the same aim as digitalization of music and optimization that is used in calculus for various reasons. Statistics take samples and boil down the rest to conform with these samples with no regard to uniqueness and of course unknown factors like spirituality and for example dark matter, Schumann Resonance or any other "occult knowledge".

Now let's look at it from the human factor. A human is composed of the physical part and the non-physical part am I right? We know more about the physical part (not all of it) but we almost know nothing about the non-physical part which is mostly addressed by ancient religions and mythology and also by the mystery religion and almost totally ignored by any modern school of thought connected with the masses, politics and science. That's why I used the term social engineering. Not that I know a whole lot about it but it is a good synonym and summary of the concept that I was adressing. No wonder communism and capitalism failed even though both of them were never applied on the world, only their tainted versions were and are around.

That's what I tried to connect here. That an approach to bring a new system that uses the old methodology is futile and empty rather then repairing and "upgrading" the old one. The basis is still empty and that makes it corruptible the same as our old systems. It's the same mentality that buys a new sink because it looks better. Repair your pipes damn it!

But let's continue:

What the hell do these people think. If I put my head in the sand that it will go away? Hell no. There is more around you then you can even imagine.

Well, this looks like that I was kinda ranting about the above mentioned topic. Your spiritual and non-physical aspects don't go away because you ignore them.

Why in logic's name would you want to use systems that oppress the individuals development by sucking them dry of their energy in form of money, motivation and intellect? The venus project is nothing more then the same experiment-failure that is called "the great work" by some. Why would one want to try that if you know that it's the same system packaged differently and optimized for more central control through the wrong use of technology?"

Now here I kinda summarized a lot and that's why it could look confusing or rant-like. I totally ignored the technological aspect here because I think it has been adressed enough and because technology advances even under our circumstances. The next step that the venus project talks about is nothing more then the same system except it will be more centralized and more suppressed.

Why? Because there will be no solution to the people that made it this way in the first place (not the politicians by the way. They are anchormen of the agenda). Cutting them off from the money? They make money and I'll love to see these people (or anyone) living on their own without any money. They could set an example for us at least with reality rather then visuals, aurals and books on the topic. But like the left wingers around here that are for the people and live in grand mansions across the Bosphorus they don't do that (kinda hard eh?).

In the next phase I can see nothing more then a centralized elite with all resources in their hands (because we handed them to them through the likes of the venus project) and a population controlled through something much more horrible then the rfid chip which is one in religion, nationality and totally devoid of individuality (I can be proven wrong since I didn't read all of their publications). How can they promise the opposite with all that Atlantis like civilization going. The centralization of all power is "the great work" imho and almost everyone is working for that endeavor with many pretexts (for the Israel in the bible (which i think was stated as spiritual Israel and not nuclear), the Maitreya, the return of "the Christ" or Christ and of course the ever popular anti-Christ).

Now let me adress the quote you gave from Fresco at the beginning and then I have to go get my ass kicked for being late at work

"...When education and resources are available to all without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential.

...The social designs that are proposed in this writing merely provide the opportunity for individuals to develop their fullest potential in whatever endeavor they choose without the fear of loss of individuality or submission to uniformity.

...People would be free to pursue whatever constructive field of endeavor they choose without any of the economic pressures, restraints, debts and taxation that are inherent in the monetary system of today."

-J.F.

Yeah well there is that small problem that stupid people can waste resources (a.k.a wars, killing of humans (which became sadly a resource in the modern paradigm: "Human Resources")). People have to earn things in my book like my friendship or companionship in any form because everyone can't handle anything. I wish everyone could (me included of course). So that priceless resource idea is not for me (or logically seen anyone). I mean you wouldn't give a gun to a chimp now would you? And a gun is wrong used technology. Like an A-Bomb is. The venus project fails at the machinised paradigm of good and evil here aswell imho but I'm saying that perhaps because I didn't read all of what they had to say. The second sentence I adressed to much anyway and the third is what free market economy is imho. Taxation is mostly based on bs people are too lazy to care for themselves (like paying education taxes in my telephone bill just because some moron in the government fudged up the budget that he created from the taxes of people too many times and schools because of this are deteriorating).

Well that's about it. I hope I got over better this time. Don't forget that I'm a Turkish guy struggling with a foreign language here and that I am just human. I make tons of mistakes and un-covered rants. I thank you John that you didn't dispose of me as "a ranting truth seeker" or "illuminati schill" and asked what I meant.

Take care my friend and everyone reading or not reading.

I'll try to go further in this article later on.